Pike's Peak Rules

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Thorina

Pike's Peak Rules

Post by Thorina »

Someone needs to write these all down all official like.

I need a set of rules to push to the very limit.

As it stands, if I got a road race rig, 750cc or under....and raced it one race as an MXer....it'd be considered an MXer.....right?
(yes, the better half and I are that nuts! :twisted: )

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. :-D The rules need to be clearly written out.....I need to know well in advance what limits I am allowed to push.

Or.....I can just show up with whatever....and keep it covered with a blanket until the start and there'd be no real way to protest me at all.
Neener, neener.....time to write out the rules. :twisted:

peace,
janette
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Re: Pike's Peak Rules

Post by Scott »

Thorina wrote:Someone needs to write these all down all official like. I need a set of rules to push to the very limit. As it stands, if I got a road race rig, 750cc or under....and raced it one race as an MXer....it'd be considered an MXer.....right? (yes, the better half and I are that nuts! :twisted: ) Yeah, that's what I'm saying. :-D The rules need to be clearly written out.....I need to know well in advance what limits I am allowed to push.
As it stands, the official rules don't address the issue you're refering to. Read the current 2007 rules HERE. Yes, someone should get this straightened out with the race officials. It's not good when the rules are verbal.
Thorina wrote:Or.....I can just show up with whatever....and keep it covered with a blanket until the start and there'd be no real way to protest me at all. Neener, neener.....
No, you're all wrong on this. If you follow the rulebook, and don't tell your competition what you're bringing, they'll still cry, bitch, and moan if you beat them. Even if you ok it all with the race officials ahead of time, some will still make fools of themselves by booooing you in the awards banquet. And you'll hear some wannabe racers still crying about it nearly a decade later. If you care what morons think of you, don't do it. But if you are a true racer, go for it! You'll get years of entertainment listening to the looser cry babies afterwards.

----------------------

Following are the rules that were in place I believe from 2000 until 2005. Before this, the sidecar rules were nearly non-existent. These rules are pretty close to the way I wrote them when the race officials asked me to submit my recommendations after the 1999 event.

-----------
Starting with 1999 the Side Car class will be a recognized competition class with a new record to be established. Machines and riders/passengers will be subject to the same basic requirements of safety, workmanship, and appearance as all other competitors. Specific conditions are listed below.

A. Engines must be of motorcycle origin and be 750cc or larger for 4 strokes, or 620cc or larger 2 stroke.
B. The ‘combinationâ€
Thorina

Post by Thorina »

I fully understand why the rules are as they are, currently. Since not a one road race rig showed up this year, seems right to try to draw in MX rigs....for sheer numbers, if for no other reason.
Even "Pokey", we put on one hell of a show this year!
No doubt!
One fast rig would not have been nearly as fun to watch, I gaurentee it. Two "Pokey" rigs were extremely good spectator sport.

I was bored over the weekend. I will come back and read thoroughly what you wrote and think on it before I come back with "the long answer".
I saw a road race rig on the internet and it's within a price range we might be able to afford.
We have a lot of time to fantasize on off-race weekends. :lol:
Much more fun then yard work.
As it stands now, our MX rig is not a viable rig for a race like Pike's Peak at all. This means we'd need to build one, or I ride with someone else. We'd want the biggest motor we could fit in it (think Cummings deisel :lol: )....but this would not be within the rules as they stand now.
I don't want the rules changed.....just want them written down very specifically.
I don't want to run in an exhibition class. Not for that kind of money. I am not going through that much effort to run a parade lap.
I was simply bored and poking at some official type folks to write the rules down in very specific language so that we know where the very edges of the limits are.
I'm not kidding when I say I may push it to the edge. I am an official type person, as such....I feel the rules have to be written with the legalistic, very competitive racer in mind.
I won't purposely break rules....but boy I could get all Johnny Cochrun, given the right set of circumstances.
It's is very possible it's a moot point. May not have the right rig or whatever, regardless of what the rules say.

Well....if nothing else....at least this actually started a conversation around here. The silence on here is deaffening at times.

Nice to hear from you Scott! Yes, I was poking fun at you in hopes you would respond. Ya just did it a day too late for keeping me entertained. It's Monday, I have real work to do today, unfortunately.

peace,
janette
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Post by Scott »

Thorina wrote: I fully understand why the rules are as they are, currently.
The current rules are what is written in the rulebook, which doesn't seem to say anything about motor size, MX rigs, or any of those things. I can assure you if you call Sonny up and tell him you want to bring a really fast, cool looking roadrace rig with a 1000cc motor in it, he'd probably OK it! They are looking for anything that will put on a good show, and attract worthy competitors. They'd probably adjust the rules however is needed to make that happen.

Thorina wrote:Since not a one road race rig showed up this year, seems right to try to draw in MX rigs....for sheer numbers, if for no other reason. Even "Pokey", we put on one hell of a show this year!
Were roadrace rigs allowed per the 2006 "unwritten" rules? I don't thing the roadracing sidecar group have even thought seriously about Pikes Peak. All it will take is one to go and make a good showing, and there will be a bunch more that will soon follow.

Thorina wrote:One fast rig would not have been nearly as fun to watch, I gaurentee it. Two "Pokey" rigs were extremely good spectator sport.
Rod Millen (all alone in his class several times), the big rig truck guys (even when there was only one), and some past sidecars (when only one or two) have shown this to be incorrect. The sidecars have always been popular up there, and more so when they are fast and exotic.

Thorina wrote: I saw a road race rig on the internet and it's within a price range we might be able to afford. We have a lot of time to fantasize on off-race weekends.
Don't get crazy. Some of your friends will hate you if you make a serious effort to win that race! "Fair" is when you don't work harder or smarter than they do to win a race.

Thorina wrote: As it stands now, our MX rig is not a viable rig for a race like Pike's Peak at all.
Oh come on, you just got done telling us MX rigs were good for Pikes Peak. Make up your mind, is it MX rigs, or more exotics that would be good? Or both?

Thorina wrote: This means we'd need to build one, or I ride with someone else. We'd want the biggest motor we could fit in it (think Cummings deisel :lol: ) .... but this would not be within the rules as they stand now.
If you want the rules to be a certain way, just call Sonny and tell him what you think. Otherwise some guy with a small motored MX rig will make sure you can't bring something that could beat him.

Thorina wrote: I don't want the rules changed.....just want them written down very specifically.
You don't want them changed from what? The old rules, the unwritten rules, or the current non-existent rules?

Thorina wrote: Nice to hear from you Scott! Yes, I was poking fun at you in hopes you would respond.
I didn't see any "poking".

Thorina wrote: Ya just did it a day too late for keeping me entertained. It's Monday, I have real work to do today, unfortunately.
Lucky us!


Good luck with your quest. I look forward to watching what shows up next year. With the added paving, the sidecar record needs to be broken again. Go for it!
Thorina

Post by Thorina »

Were road race rigs allowed? It's my understanding that they were, just none showed up. Don't quote me on that, because I really don't know. I wasn't paying that much attention to what "could be". I was much more concerned with the task at hand.....trying not to say the f word around any cameras. ;-)
I would LOVE to draw the Eastern road racers to the event!!!!!!!!!!
There would HAVE to be a separate class for them, though. Like apples and oranges. I wouldn't show up to such an event knowing I was going to look just plain stupid racing head to head with a road race rig.
Two classes road/off road would be fine with some limitations to make it financially possible for more people to enter and be competitive.
If "vintage" road racers showed up and F1 road racers showed up....you'd need as further break down of class. There are more active vintage road racers....so that's where I'd start to recruit and word the rules accordingly.

I raced a 750 rig this year....my/our normal rig is a KX540. I wouldn't make the effort to run such a small motor up the mtn.....especially after having raced it this year. (There wasn't anyone on a rig the same size as the one we normally race. 700 was the smallest and they won.)
Now I know that's a pretty futile effort without a lot of work.
With the way it's set up right now (geared to the moon), we'd be lucky to hit 40 pinned by near the top. I'd "comfortably" want another 40 mph....and I just don't see that as being physically possible for a carbed 540.

I'd gladly race it on the 750 again.....and knowing what I know now....yeah...just once will open your eyes to what needs to be done.
They don't offer a "What you need to know about racing a sidecar up Pike's Peak" informational pamphlet from Pueblo, CO. :lol:

Try to beat the record?
.....{maniacle laughter}...... nah....I am not that competitive minded :---) ....teeheehee....BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

Wipe out the MX rigs? Nope....no way. They are the only group willing to go for it, at this point.
Exotics? Um....not right now. That wouldn't be where I'd lean (no pun intended) right at this point. The snowmobile was cute. I don't want to be in the cute class. I'd rather be in the "That's BAD ASS!" class.....with some competition.

Seriously, I don't see myself being in the position of breaking the record for sheer financial reasons. It's nice to dream. Always good to set high goals. Who knows.....might happen. Never say never.
Better happen soon while my knees still sortawork.
I would like to experience the race at much higher speeds at least once, though....really would. I want 100 or better....at least once.

Scott said:
"Don't get crazy. Some of your friends will hate you if you make a serious effort to win that race! "Fair" is when you don't work harder or smarter than they do to win a race. "

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Wouldn't be the first time I pissed someone off.

I think I am being perfectly fair under the rules of gentlemanly engangement by giving advanced warning that I may push the rules. :-D

I would love to see so damn many sidecars show up that they must make multiple classes to properly classify all of them.

Yeah....I'll put the crack pipe down, now. :lol:

I'll be down in your general vacinity Nov 2nd. If ya wanna grab a cuppa coffee, give me a shout.
Rational discussion? MY G_D! What is this board coming to! ;-)

peace,
janette
rx7paula

Post by rx7paula »

Hey Scott
Pikes Peak 2007...... HUHMMMM.
Scott Gregory.
Al Wenzel
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The PPIHC

Post by Al Wenzel »

I feel the need to comment on this subject, though I'm not sure it will help.

Longtime sidecar passenger, Pat Holmes, of Colorado Springs, CO is the one who coaxed the four teams to attend the 2006 Pikes Peak International Hillclimb (PPIHC). Pat is very well regarded in the USA off-road sidecar community and is very passionate towards the sport of sidecar racing.

Pat, being a local to the PPIHC and knowing many of the officials personally, had taken a look at the decline of sidecars on the mountain over the past few years and made a determination. His inclination was that the sidecar class had become too specialized and that only a very few would make the commitment to race an outfit up the mountain.

Pat invisioned a step back to a simpler situation for the outfits and devised a supplemental class/rule arrangement for the sidecars, which he impressed upon the PPIHC organizers for 2006.

To the best of my knowledge, his supplemental regs for sidecars used at the PPIHC Sidecar Class are: 750cc Maximum; Two cylinder Maximum; Each machine must be based on a commercially available or homebuilt off-road oriented sidecar chassis; Any other PPIHC unique requirements (Tires, Dead-Man ignition cut-off, etc...)

Pat also indicated that rigs that did not meet these criteria could always run for the the PPIHC "Sidecar Record" and would not be excluded from the event, though they may be potentially excluded from the Sidecar Class.

If any potential 2007 PPIHC competitors need to contact Pat Holmes for further clarification of the supplemental rules, feel free to contact me and I will get you in touch with him.

Thanks for your time......

Al,

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Re: The PPIHC

Post by Scott »

Al Wenzel wrote:Pat, being a local to the PPIHC and knowing many of the officials personally, had taken a look at the decline of sidecars on the mountain over the past few years and made a determination. His inclination was that the sidecar class had become too specialized and that only a very few would make the commitment to race an outfit up the mountain.

Pat invisioned a step back to a simpler situation for the outfits and devised a supplemental class/rule arrangement for the sidecars, which he impressed upon the PPIHC organizers for 2006.
As I recall, Pat did that for 2005, and nobody showed up. And even if the rules were not actually changed until 2006, why weren't there any sidecars in 2005? The old rules didn’t exclude any of the rigs that showed up in 2006. Back with those rules there were as many as 8 sidecars that showed up. So, I think turnout has had little to do with the rules.

The way I see it, four factors have affected the turnout. The first is the EXPENSE of doing that race. It’s quite costly to take a week or more off work and spend a bunch on travel and hotel expenses. A healthy purse that paid all who attended would probably help bring out more rigs. Unfortunately, that’s unlikely to happen.

The second is the NUMBER of people racing off-road sidecars has gone down quite a bit. Many of the people who raced at Pikes Peak in the past aren’t actively racing anymore.

The next is PROMOTION. It takes someone like Pat to call and talk to the potential sidecar teams, and sell them on the idea of racing Pikes Peak. My guess is THIS is the primary reason why 4 rigs showed up this year. If someone in the sidecar roadracing world did that, I’m sure some of them would show up too. But nobody has done that in recent years, when the pavement has been such an important factor. Maybe I’ll make a few phone calls and see if we can get some of those guys interested!

The forth factor that I think has affected turnout is COMPETITION. It’s a lot more attractive to some when they know none of the hotshots will be there with a hot bike. Pat’s solution seems to be targeted at this issue. It appears to allow the slower sidecars a chance at “winningâ€
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Post by Scott »

rx7paula wrote:Hey Scott
Pikes Peak 2007...... HUHMMMM.
Scott Gregory.
Hey Scott, I have an idea. How would you like to drive a killer sidecar in the “MXâ€
Thorina

Re: The PPIHC

Post by Thorina »

Yup! Hats off to Pat for promoting the event this year! I wouldn't have come, if it had not been for his pursuading. Rules had nothing to do with it at all....it was his efforts that got 4 rigs there, simple as that.
Hell, I don't think I'd really even heard of the event before this year.

Yes, I would like to pass on the pursuasion and try to get some of the eastern factor road racers involved. Not the super high $$ F1 type modern rigs....but the vintage road faction that is trying to make a come back in the scene just as much as the western off road faction.
The road race rig I ran across would be perfectly suited to race with other vintage road racers. That would be an even match.

Competition draws me there, besides the over all mystique of the event. Really is a cool event all the way around.
But, if you come on a super modified MX rig and really smoke everyone....you can pretty much gaurentee that no one will return the following year. No one is going to spend that kind of money to have abosolutely no chance at winning. They certainly won't convince their friends to come try, either.
As a rookie on a tight budget, if you plan to be there, it might just take the event off my list of things to do next year. I cannot compete with your rig and I know it. I'd see no need to spend several thousand $$ to prove myself right.
If you want to call that sniveling, so be it. To me, I spend the money I do to compete....not to get my ass handed to me. Same reason I wouldn't enter the truck class to race the mtn on my stock Ranger.

If I had a rig that I felt could compete with you, my feelings would be entirely different. But I don't. Nor does anyone I currently know. Since readily available, affordable rigs aren't falling out of the woodworks....I don't see you having much competion if you did show up.
Then you'd say everyone was sniveling, no one would show up,....and we're right back to where it was a few years ago.
You already know that your presence nearly gaurentees you will be the only one there.

We were all basically rookies this year on rigs that were not modified other then maybe sprockets and tires to do the race. This made it fun.
We all had the same chance of winning as the rest.
If I showed up on a road race rig and smoked everyone....I'd fully expect people to snivel, rightfully so....then not show up the following year.
Yes, I do want something written in there so that dumb asses like us don't try to unreasonably press the rules.

This year....we didn't win. You also didn't hear any sniveling about it because we were evenly matched and we all knew it. Having no officially, legally poured over rules made no difference what so ever to anyone that showed up this year. We showed up on the same rigs we regularly race against each other.

If I showed up on a road rig....yup....there'd be controversy. As it stands....who knows who'd officially win that debate (and who cares) if we'd raced the damn thing on an MX track.....but I assure you, it will gaurentee no one shows up the following year. If I lost the debate, I wouldn't show up, and if I won, none of my current competition would show up.....which would make me not want to show up.
I know even with a road rig, 750cc....I could not shave the 3+ minutes off my time that I'd want to if I was truely going for the record.
Yes, I play to win....but also want to do it against head to head competition. Showing up to a fist fight with a gun is not the way I'd want to win.
Technically, as our local rules are written, it doesn't specify what classifies someone for the women's class. Technically, if Morgan wanted to sign up for the women's class, he could....and there isn't a damn thing in the rules keeping him from doing so. But, what sort of glory would he feel from signing up in the women's class and smoking everyone?
Same thing.

Bottom line....no matter what the rules say.....unless I happen along an appropriate rig....I won't be there. I won't race the 540, Morgan wouldn't last year. I won't try to convince others on 540 rigs to come. They are not appropriate for the race, just as my stock truck isn't. But, there are others currently racing MX/GPs that do have rigs that fall well into the rules and would be viable competition to the 600-750 rigs that showed this year.

I don't see a full sponsorship from Big Bear Choppers on my horizon, but ya never know. If such a sponsorship should happen along....then yeah....I'd look forward to sitting next to you on the line. :-D
I'd emplore the powers that be to set us in our own class, though.
I'd feel no glory what so ever by showing up on a professionally set up rig and kicking the asses of those that do all their own stuff in their garage.

I brought this up to stir things up. We need more then 4 teams on the line next year or we stand too close to the "cute class". If we can get people thinking about it now, we stand a better chance of seeing more rigs and possibly a more diverse showing of rigs. This is good for the sport and good for all of us all the way around in trying to obtain more sponsorships. As you well know, one guy racing alone generally doesn't get many sponsorship oportunities.

Unless I am racing for the record, I'd focus my efforts on getting a full grid.....not winning at all costs. Unless we are truely racing for the record, the only thing we are racing for is the competition of it all. With a 750 limit....none of us would be racing for the record....mx set up or road set up wouldn't matter one bit.
Winning this event, to me....is breaking the current record.



At least someone is talking 'round here. :!:

peace,
janette
rx7paula

Post by rx7paula »

[quote="Scott"]Hey Scott, I have an idea. How would you like to drive a killer sidecar in the “MXâ€
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Comments

Post by Mike Burns Jr »

Comments not in a particular order:

*I think a fresh 540 2-stroke could be "Competitive"

*Though a 540 does not meet the rules so it is moot.

*A road racer could probably race a vintage MX and therefore qualify under the rules.

*I believe besides the rules Al listed there was also a limitation on tire width.

*This rule would prohibit most road race sidecars.

*Both sidecars I have raced at Pikes Peak previosly, though both converted MX rigs neither would fit the rules.

*Neither sidecar would be capable of setting a "Record"
1st sidecar EML/Kawasaki 600- Engine too small,also a sweet sounding 4 cylinder and the tires are too wide: 3 strikes
2nd sidecar EML/Yamaha 1000-Though based on the same legal 750, engine is too large.

*Though called the"Race to the clouds" it is a time trial for record time.

*A road race sidecar has tried Pikes Peak several time and showed the chassis Viable-though motor problems prevented showing the true potential.

*No other class that I know of has a "Race" with no intention of setting a "Record" time.

*Pikes Peak is a great event/experience.

*A sidecar will not reach 100 mph at Pikes Peak.

*Sidecars are not a Spec class that is called "NASCAR"

* The "Pokey" sidecar that established the minnimun engine size was driven by my father-Though "Pokey" he reached the top. Other have not.

*I have tried to follow behind the Swedes "Current record holders" and I don't want to go that fast.

*If I bring a "Record" sidecar and fail to set a record by seconds I get to watch a "Competitive" sidecar win a trophy.

*"Each machine must be a commercially available or home built offroad sidecar chassis" I don't know what other kinds there are, but this would exclude road race sidecars as well as speedway sidecars.

*If a sidecar is "Pokey" it could not qualify on a time basis.

*The sidecars that have set the records have proved that MX is not the set up, nor is road race. A combo seems to be the HOT set up.

*Handicapping belongs in horse racing.

*When did spending your own money become a violation of the rules?

*When did having a Professional sponser become a violation of the rules?

*Inviting road race sidecars and the telling F1 rigs they can't "Race" is like the limited "MX" rules in place.

*I agree with the concept of limiting costs, but you can't penalize those who can spend $$.

*Even if we get a "Full Grid"? Cars still rule the show.

*The Whitneys and the Swedes bouncing of one another setting new "Records" can never be called "Cute".

*The 3 times I have been to Pikes Peak I went fast enough to scare the SH*T out of myself.



Just a few thoughts to continue the dialog. It's better than a Blog.


Mike Burns Jr
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Post by Al Wenzel »

Hi Mike,

Yes, I think you are right about the tire widths.

For the correct information needed about Sidecars on the Mountain, its probably best to start with Pat Holmes and proceed from there.

Al,
Sidecar MX is the ultimate Team Sport...
Thorina

Post by Thorina »

Great comments, Mike!

This is simply a dialogue. If I really wanted to go after something official, with no dialogue from the people who want to do this event, or have done this event in the past....I'd have gotten a hold of Patrick, to begin with. Not like he's hard to find. I have a phone, and I'm not afraid to use it. :-D

Sounds like there may be more interest in it, then in years past.
That's cool!
I want to do it again. Some parts scared me.....but I liked it a lot. It's always good to give the sphinter muscles a work out. :-D

peace,
janette
irish532

Re: Pike's Peak Rules

Post by irish532 »

im looking for a ride... im new to the sport... i would love to ride up pike`s peak.... im in socal...
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